Rethink Sales Podcast: Personal Branding with Itzik Amiel

Mark Donnolo
Welcome to the SalesGlobe Rethink Sales Podcast, I’m Mark Donnolo.

Michelle Seger
And I’m Michelle Seger.

Mark Donnolo
And today Michelle, we’re going to be talking with a special guest Itzik Amiel about personal branding, which is something I think we all want to learn about.

Michelle Seger
Oh yeah, I’m very excited that we can call Itzik Amiel who is an award winning international speaker, Best Selling Author. We can also call him a colleague and a friend. So today we’re going to talk about turning relationships into revenue and results and personal branding. It’s going to be a great podcast today.

Okay, so today we’re talking to Itzik Amiel. He is an award winning speaker, motivational trainer, attorney. I mean, you name it. He’s like, got it all going on. Yep. Right. Yes. Attorney at Law, a mentor, business mentor, professional services mentor. Itzik, welcome. We are really excited to have you here with us today.

Itzik Amiel
Thanks a lot, Michelle. And Mark yeah, I love it. Because you know, you got confusing the titles. That’s you know, my boss doesn’t know what are you doing? I said, You shut up. You give me one salary. And I’m seven thing at the same time.

Michelle Seger
So you have got like, yeah, so many things going on. It’s almost like you must have a great ability to multitask. Yeah.

Itzik Amiel
No, actually, I’m regretting about it. If you ask me now biggest regret, I’m overqualified, is the biggest. Like saying my wife said you’re fat I said no, I’m just wanting to Rome heights.

Mark Donnolo
So so Itzik you uh, you, you you’ve had an amazing journey, through your career through your life. And I think that we’d love to start there and just learn about you and and how you’ve gotten to where you are. Because one of the things we talk about all the time is, you know, you’ve got goals when you’re younger, and you want to accomplish certain things, and you set these goals and you work on the milestones, etc. But then somewhere along the way, we develop a path right? And we don’t know what that path is, until we actually get there we go, wow, look, look what I did and where I came from. And, and so tell us a little bit about your background and, and how you got to where you are now.

Itzik Amiel
Great, thanks for that. I mean, to say that I’m still on my journey. So it’s not here the college year not dying yet and my journey so welcome to my journey. But you know, like you said, such a wonderful thing I think I never planned and I will never plan I don’t have mission and vision. I knew what I love. I found out what I really love during the years I think I feel comfortable now think I’m very good at. And I also know very well what I hate very much. And that took me a long time to define you know, to define because I realized I don’t need them in my life because you know, when I was young, and I used to have priorities, about what asshole boss I had to give my money, but now I know I can get rid of them and I can find another job it took time to understand that and and I even promised the last one I stand on the biggest stage of the world and I thank him for being such an idiot because otherwise I’d be a good employee standing working for company and never setting out. But I think I think what I really enjoy and I think a lot of people will identify themselves with is the path because if I if I if there was an exit at the end of my path, I probably want to start again from beginning a lot of people in the startup world feeling the same it’s not about making money and exit because there’s emptiness there. You want to start again is the challenge you’ve exhausted from nothing make it amazing and whether the common routine is so easy, then you better go back to the uncomfortable to be successful again because otherwise you’d be comfortable Well I think the path of every time meeting new people you don’t know what happened like this morning I talked with somebody within an hour because that’s my mission and hour I have a conversation ultimate him lifetime connection. Best friend so much that if people met us they think we known each other for 20 years although we know each other for one hour oh that’s the end of the conversation one hour of fame. That’s it and that’s that I need to and most time it takes me about five minutes because I’m so alert in my brain of other people. I was working for years on my library my brain and all of us doing it by the way in unintentionally when you cross the street when you see people when you’re on the bus or a train or plane you always your brain said I like I don’t like like I don’t like the brain do it constantly consistently. Now if you know how to tap into it and these principles, you’ll smell people funky llama does you know offending people. So you give them five minutes of fame and as they go up I have to go. I never say no to people. That’s another thing because I’m a giver. So it’s hard to say no, but I say “deferred yes.” What do I mean is like, if somebody asked something to me and I really not sure I want to help them. It’s very hard to say no, I will say no, I’m so busy right now, let’s talk at the end of August. Why? Because I teach follow up and I know 98% of people fail on the follow up and ask me one follow up. I give them a deferred yes, they turn it into a no. There you go. So to teach just in the beginning of our conversation.

Mark Donnolo
I love that deferred follow up, though, because what you’re doing is you’re kind of testing them and their drive and their interest and their tenacity to be able to follow up, right. That’s a filter right there.

Itzik Amiel
Absolutely. I mean, I agree. I mean, because it’s always reciprocity. I mean, you know, relationship is reciprocity. You cannot decide you want to be a friend, somebody and they don’t like you. I mean, you know, not gonna go nowhere with it. But sometimes, I mean, I’m driving almost like, literally saying, like, I’m crashing my car into a wall, because those are really driving fast. Because I always believed and I heard many years ago, somebody told me, what if it’s you, tomorrow is your last day of your life? What will you do today? And most people ask this question, What did what you do there? And they give me different answers. So what are you doing now? Go do it now. But a waiver. That’s how I live my life. And if you know me, and think you know, my story, I survived. These are from terrorist attacks. So that’s always the motto for me, for loving people loving life, I’m smiling, because I’m happy in the moment. I’m so full of that. And most times, people that I met, they are the people who could change my mood. There’s nobody else. I mean, it’s not my mindset, which is very strong by now is not the money in the bank account is the people and it can be one person that really can destroy the whole day. Oh, one incident, you know, because I never met the person in my lifetime. The wake up in the morning, going to the mirror, look at themselves and say today, today I will be pissed.

Michelle Seger
Think Mark does? I think he might have been looking in the mirror saying today, I’m gonna be pissed.

Mark Donnolo
I don’t do that. But I imagine if you did, it could only get better. Right? So I want to ask you a question. Just you’re talking about how you how you walk around, or how you connect with people or see people. Okay, so in this maybe it could be some personal counseling for me, because I’m one of those people like, well, I walk through an airport, I’m not like looking at everybody. I’m not connecting with everybody, I’m kind of doing my thing, or, you know, walking through town or whatever, I’m doing my thing. But you seem to me to be a person who’s a magnet, right? You probably attract attention, and you attract people probably because of how you are and how you carry yourself. Is that something that is something that you’ve worked on? Or is that just your natural personality? Or what would you give? What advice would you give to people maybe like me, that you know, I get focused on getting things done? And I’m not I’m not connecting with people as much or thinking about that connection point.

Itzik Amiel
It’s beautiful and difficult question. Nobody ever asked me this question. I’ll be honest with you, Mark. And I don’t think, by the way, it’s a skill. I don’t think you need to learn from this. I believe everybody was born with a skill. I think the only thing is I’m more intentional with my behavior and the intention come from frustration and feeling lonely fulfilling in the side. Now I was not a person in the middle of conversation and networker, what I call it nowadays network jerks. I was the guy in the side. And I thought I’m doing it all wrong. And they all day I grew and I used to be the chairman of tax lawyers, I realized that the people in the middle are not network and they don’t give a shit. They’re just collecting business card and I call him that’s why network jerk. I found out that the important people always on the side of the room. Because if a CEO of a company come to him in business meeting, they don’t want to be in the middle of everything. They don’t want to be seen they want to grab the information and go, they don’t need connection on money. They have it already. So if you stand on the side you meet them. You see so and I start separating because I was born in a very welcoming family so much as my grandmother was accused when she died under them for that I remember there was a books about my grandmother but there was a if somebody knows in the Bible there was Abraham one of the three fathers used to be a hospitality so they said there was no this guy in the Bible. They think that he was jealous for my grandma. She was so hospitality there will be strangers coming to the house eating we didn’t know the door was always open. Now we’re not talking they’re not in a place that there’s no thieves I mean, who’s leaving the door open at people stranger come and I think that’s come in our all our family: the giving. So my struggle was how to be a taker. How to be able to take cause I give and give and give and give and get frustrated because people think of course they love to take as much as they want. And you think okay, if I give a get the golden rule and you don’t get so how do you get out of it? And how do you make stop for it and I realized one thing that if you’re a giver, but you don’t know how to take, I watch a lot of people take from you when you give. So it’s the balance of those things during the year and also selecting the people or prioritizing the people in your life. Also important because at the end of the day, we all know we’re not going to have time for all the people you know. So how who are the people you want to give, and make sure they know about it. So much that even I’m a person if somebody booked for me one hour mentoring, after the conversation is so awesome. I’m not going to stop that to 60 minutes. I’ll let the floor another few minutes and I will delay the next one. Because I think it’s not fair. For the sake of building relationships. And people, I don’t care if they feel it or not, I feel it is so bound so. So everything was maybe selfish behavior, but more. I always believe if mindset, my mindset will be strong. Everything will be so easy. And nobody teaching me that. So I remember in I worked for law firms, they used to tell you what not good to do. But nobody tell you hey, did a good job. And I worked so hard on it said you know what? And don’t tell nobody. I’ll share it with you. I used to go to the toilet, close the door, look at myself in the mirror and said Good job, man. Good job. Yeah, and so nowadays, when I’m a speaker, do you think I care if the audience like what I say on stage or not? Yes, I do. But I’m not based my success. So what if the audience clapped in those standing ovation. First for me, how much should I be burned? I did everything to do and guess what when you’re doing that, you know, for sure they would love it and they have standing ovation, but it’s not based on other people’s opinion. But when you do that, you’ll be miserable. Right? You never know yourself value. You never will be able to ask $1 million for the hour though. You know, you are the only person in the world and you’re unique so why don’t you ask $1 million Wow. Because the fears comes all these things comes to your brain so mindset for me without reading about it and without going to any seminars. I would just probably from frustration I knew that I have to work on it very hard so I think that’s where it starts. So I think you have to be intentional mark the question for you. You are doing what I’m doing exactly the same. Because we are human beings sale is human behavior. It just not they’re aware of it your brain watching all the people that you cross in the airport and say I like I don’t like, I like I don’t like. But nobody taught you how can you go open this bag when we go begging the brain or destroying the brain? That you stole the information if I go there and I tell you, you realize Oh, you’re right. It’s actually like only ladies with blue eyes and red shoes. But you never did it. Nobody ever take the time to do it. Because you see the pattern of behavior. It’s easier you see? Here’s another thing for you go to conference 1000s of people in the room.

What you see 1000s of people, most people know obviously 10-15 faces. Now what happened? Now this is scientifically true, actually. And so if I could stop trying to ask you Mark Oh, Michelle, can you show me 10-15 people? Most people cannot do that, why? Because they push the delete button and I start talking to everybody and wasting the time and hoping to meet good people. But here’s the reality the reality the brain is your biggest biggest slave if you want because you enter the room there are 1000s of people in the room the brain see all the 1000s of people compared to all the people using your library in your brain and show you on the silver tray here are the 10-15 people you should talk to right now because first probably should have something happen. Friendship, relationship, you best known people you like in your life. Now if you do that and if you don’t have good memory for the benefit of us okay, this lady with a red scarf these men with a with a blue tie whatever and go to them you will see magic happen and you say oh my God, and that you’re not in for 20 as you just met. So ignoring a lot of powers we have within us we all born for the same skills I don’t think I did anything unique. I just practice it a lot and I think I’m aware of it and it sounds like magic like people think I’m reading people I don’t read anybody. It just again I just pulling the right draw, and it’s in the draw.

Mark Donnolo
So you said a very important word as you were saying all that which is intentional, right? You’re being very intentional about what you’re doing because we have the predisposition to just classify quickly to try to cut down on the work our brain needs to do right yeah. And so being intentional about I want to connect with people and they

Itzik Amiel
And they see that people you know you want to connect. Yeah, we really don’t want to connect negative outlet and these always example I like to scare myself sometimes think somebody looks horrible. I think not and see what happens. And if it if it is horrible great, my system works if it doesn’t, that’s correct. And by the way, everything I teach I just speaking about today, I stole from somebody else, this by example. This is how you go to Israel and you’d be screened if you go to Israel ever. That’s the way you screen. There’ll be good people. Welcome. They’ll be bad people will never come to the airport and be isolated. I will be in the helicopter and it will be the example the deck people and perform them everything on the terrorists to show that the system works. So that’s, that’s so hey, I just did the same thing relationship works perfectly good. And then you know, the system works.

Michelle Seger
So I want to ask you about something you mentioned that most and people are so many people are comfortable with giving. And they’re not as comfortable with taking, or I’ll even say another way, asking. So I know many people that have so much goodwill that they built up, and they don’t know how to, or really make that that shift over to asking. I sat next to people where a CEO has asked another CEO, what can I do for you, you’ve done so much for me? And the answer is nothing just you know, keep keep being my friend, or whatever the case may be. How do you get people to shift their mindset into being comfortable with asking

Itzik Amiel
It’s again a wonderful question because you know, it’s exactly the problem that I think we as a society destroy our own brains that I invited once at a conference of lawyers, you know, don’t go into get referral. So in our account there one day with few clients and asked for one’s client, what do you think look, weirder them or me? Everyone says I’m weirder what client wealthy, but it all coming together client when we come to clients to create them. Why? Because nobody gives them they’ll come to get not to give somebody come to him. That’s exactly exactly what it was. This is my book. That’s exactly why stand up, if you will be the giver, and everybody come to take, yeah, maybe people thinking you’re weird. But if you do it again, and again, and again, now you’re authentic. Now it’s you. And you stand up very quickly, because everybody nowadays, not only everybody, everything dominant is to grab something from us all marketing based on getting attention, Oh Mark, they’ll teach you how to grab attention of the audience, I said no no no no no. Build relationship by giving attention. If you give attention everybody wants from that if you get attention, everybody’s scared of that. You know, we don’t want you know, where all these commercials, all the things, all the all the stuff is exercise for your audience. If they ignore my voice or your voice, and listen to other sounds in the room they have around. Maybe they have a car passing by, maybe the children’s are playing, maybe the fridge, they’re making some noises, maybe the air conditioning. Right? All those things are there all the time? So it was a tricky question, right? Because I shifted their attention from my voice, all the sounds, you see why in English, you say you pay attention is a monetary verb is stronger than anything else you could do we are an attention economy if you know how to pay with it, you do magic. Because you give people the biggest gift, you give them your time, your biggest commodity. So you better choose who you want to give it to. And if you don’t choose, you’re going to waste it on the wrong people. And there’s no way to get it back. That’s how important it is.

Michelle Seger
This kind of leads into the heart of your best selling book, the attention switch. So let’s talk about why. What drove you to wrote that, write that book? And what would you say would be like, you know, the biggest takeaway from that book for anyone reading it, and by the way, I did read it. You gifted me that book, by the way, I took it, you gave it to me. And it has really wonderful principals.

Itzik Amiel
Thank you for that. I mean, so again, this kind of frustration, frustration in my own house and traveling idea that I saw people, husband and wife sitting in breakfast in hotel, they don’t talk to each other. They’re both in the phone or the iPad. At home, we’re sitting at dinner and I see my daughters on the iPad, I’m on the iPhone, nobody talks to each other that’s crazy. And I would start out of a joke about it now imagine our grand grandchildren when you ask them to go outside to talk to the neighbor they don’t know what to do how to do that. What do you mean to talk? What is that thing? And I thought that was crazy for Corona of course and before that the be disconnected people and that was my biggest fear because I thought it is it’s not a skill, it’s a mask for human behavior social behavior is for survival it’s nothing to do with business and I realized that everybody else teaching networking and building relationship in a wrong way that tell you go network when you need clients. No you don’t go to network when you’re when you’re desperate nobody wants to talk to desperate people. You network when you busy you know we have so much work on network so everything the opposite teaches us the old people teaching doesn’t even know how to network you know they tell you being the ascender said absolutely not you know so all thing against and I said you know my industry is industry professional says you know, all based on that mouth in mouth and ear all these advertising referrals they are not allowed to put commercial you know all marketing based on so it was frightening and I said okay, I need to find the principal. And then what I find them interesting there is so much material about the attention is actually a muscle muscle of the brain. And there’s a lot of science, psychology In the talk about about love about it, when you talk about ADHD, you know, the session deficit, the children are sick, they never looked at the tension as a positive attitude as a negative, yet demanding too much attention. So much that they compare attention to, to a bucket of water, that is a limitation. So there’s no limitation attention, you have enough attention, you can give the promised time. But if you have unlimited time, you have unlimited attention you can give you decide what you want to go, you want to give it. So I started building my own thinking around it. And I discovered that and I stopped practicing it. And that’s good. As an as more in I’m an introvert, I’m an ambivert that most of us but I have more introverted part of my personality. It fits very well, because I didn’t have to talk. I didn’t have to say anything about me. I just ask question, and people tell the stories, and then what they’ll say. And then after that, their story. And honestly, I capture it. And they will thank me. And I said, I didn’t say a word. And they thank me. So it was so easy for me to start building relationships based on that. And that’s why I started very my own world of attention giving, funding Microsoft research from 2015. We show that in 2000, the average attention span of human being was only 12 seconds, and went down to in 2013 to eight second, which is now in 2022. I don’t know what happened now. But but the scary thing, it was one second less, as you know, like goldfish, I don’t know how goldfish can give nine second attention span.

Michelle Seger
How do they know that?

Itzik Amiel
Yeah, so that’s the news. Here you go. So that’s all the things build it up. And I build my own methodology. And I teach it and people loving it. Because it’s easier than that learning or memorizing thing and talking about yourself, which is always hard for all of us. Because then you don’t need to sell yourself. I think Mark is the one we talked about it a while ago, but it’s nobody likes to buy that. Nobody likes to be sold. But everybody loves to buy. They don’t need to convince nobody to sell nobody, but they want to buy from you just because you’re gonna give them attention again. To see you again, to be around you, again, to be bought to buy the product from you, and nobody else just because of that.

Mark Donnolo
So I’m so I’m picking up a great pattern here, which you’ve called out already, which is opposites, right? So to build relationships, you give attention, you don’t seek attention. You network when you’re busy. Not when you need work. You ask questions, you don’t say, you don’t talk, you ask questions. And then you go to the outside of the room at the conference, not the middle of the room.

Itzik Amiel
Yeah, I mean, and if you look at it, it’s the opposite of normal behavior of human being. Because people who go to conferences whether to buy if you have money, you buy VIP 20% of the audience buy VIP, 20% of VIP, buy the diamond or platinum, whatever it’s called. But do you think from our perspective of business, it’s idiotic thing? What do you think if you sit in front, what will happen, that gold will fall from the sky? You know, as a speaker, right? If we are going to listen to another speaker on stage, when we are an event speakers, what we’re going to come from the front or from the back of the room? You’re going to think from the back of the room. So if you want to meet the most important people they’re not going to be in the front they’ll be in the back of the room. This is so many things so it’s I’m talking about it for years and that’s why that’s why I built relationships and sometimes I was shocked I couldn’t believe I remember meeting a lady she was CEO of oil and gas company from Ukraine by coincidence. Side of the meeting room! And everybody else says this cannot be. I remember even talking to myself cannot be. I met her and everybody looking to meet these people and I made them like I went to a toilet in India and conference and and I saw TV in front of me. So I said the loudly I wish I knew that then I can drink a bit more or less I can watch the news. So the guy next thing you say that is hysterical, and in the end he is the CEO of Infosys, one of the biggest IT companies. I mean, I never looked for those things but again because I was I was intentional. So my brand was a lead I mean the moment that went outside influences them of course I build relationship but I never went after him because he was a disease. And and that’s why people don’t understand if successful people are very approachable people. The mistake people make the running after people they think they are successful, but those people are small people Guardians of the guard that you think they are being successful people are very approachable people, but they don’t want your money. They don’t need your connection. The only thing they want is where they give you advice. They see that the implement it, you put it in your business and you report to them back I was successful not successful, what can you do more? So I call the by the way the Golden Circle in relationship if you want to meet somebody very known, go somewhere when they speak on stage, listen, listen to one of the advice they give something that fit with your business and commit to implement, and run before they leave the stage, etc. So sir I want to talk to you. Yes. And can I ask you lady, we can reach him because I saw you saying that on stage, I would love to implemented my business, but I want to report to you back if it’s successful or not, and they will tell you to give your email or phone or their system to give you a way to report back. And the only thing you have to do is do it and report back and the moment you did it, you’ll be the only one in the world. And he has a spark of relationship. And it can be the most important.

Michelle Seger
Well, that’s it, but it’s different. That’s unique because what I want to do is I want to it’s an interesting segway over to sales. I want to tie this back to people in sales, which I would argue that in the legal profession, everyone that you serve business people, those that own business, we’re all selling right at the end of the day. So how do you effectively and you’ve already done some of this, but I wanted to discuss, you know, there’s a tension, and some people will associate that with dinner, and golf and events. And then there’s actually though, take your relationship and turning it into true referrals, results, revenue for the business, you talk about that very specifically in your book and in your, your global speaking. And I’d like to make that connection for people. Because I’ll give you an example. It’s like, I’m consulting with a national financial services company right now. And as part of their incentive plan, they have in there, the number of dinners and the number of conferences and events that they’re attending. And that would include like golf, but they actually have a targeted number, and not results. And I thought, and I said, Why is that in there? Like, why is the dinner important? What is it that we expect to have happen there? You know, I think that we get a little confused, but I’d like to hear your perspective, and how we tie all that together.

Itzik Amiel
I love that because you know that first I will say that I have expression, I will say people bond when they’re having fun. Yeah. So be asking me, Where do I start networking? It’s not when I sit in seminar next to somebody because all those nice people. Go in the evening and they start behaving like they will be friends. They drink, they talk, about everything I work, so you going to seek it from me, I work because I hardly drink. Alcohol is zero, I was alert. And I know exactly who they are. So I always laugh with people, I want to make a lot of money, I publish some pictures or become a billionaire. But that wasn’t it so people bond when they’re having fun, because that’s where the things comes out. But what he said is true. But it’s not true. Because by the way, I do not play golf, that’s when I’m valuable. I was avoiding it. So it’s very good for network maybe, but I never needed it just that there are opportunities that people are letting the guard off. And that’s a great opportunity to have to score authentic conversation. So you cannot come as Wolf and pretend you’re a llama. But if you’re a llama that’s a great place to be. But you know why they never get results. Because 98% of people not failing on building this initial relationship and dinner and blah blah blah, is the follow up 98% of people failing and follow up. And the reason for it is very simple. It is how the human brain works. If you ever did the David Allen cuadrado productivity the all those things, including losing weight, by the way, falling under a cube called important but not urgent, you know you’re very important and not important. All this important, but not urgent and important not urgent. It’s always long term and the brain love to defer. That’s it, huh? So you will have to be intentional about an additional way of doing solution for example, I’m teaching two ways one is associating it so there are habits we already have in our life. Like you know, we drink coffee every morning we opening the computer you don’t know what brushing your teeth. So whatever you do, so if you associated the building relationship next to something you already done in very short term, it will turn into an habit as well. So it’s that’s one way the other way just scheduling it for dinner agenda and nobody ever can delete their application and even your system yourself nobody can delete in your agenda, which mean you are consistently obliged to do it. But so follow up is one of the thing but follow up the reason is not these days. The solution is and again I discovered this years ago, is a lot of people have the wrong mindset. And I give you example and you get it very fast. I mean, imagine you have a pill, and this pill can cure 100% guarantee another person is very sick and you’re good person. How many times will you call the other person to take your pill? How many times huh I mean you’re good person you call them all the time every time you know they’re gonna feel nudgey, pushy, salesy, right. I want to help this person do consider live right. And the only thing could happen maybe the other person said no, stop calling me I want to die I don’t want the pill. I mean some people even continue calling after that as well. So here you go. A lot of people don’t believe that their services is like this pill and that’s why they feel nudgey and salesy and answer uncomfortable or maybe there’s no two weeks or and you call every day. But if you call every day, what about the proposal? Well, that’s nudgey that’s pushy. If you call every day and every single one we give value to the person you’re talking to. They’ll open it every day, they’re never gonna stop. And that’s the problem the follow up is the value creation and value creation is a hard hard work. It doesn’t cost money but it’s hard work could be zero money, but it’s a hard work and most people not willing to put the time on it and that’s why it’s easy to stand out of the crowd. I’m sending every Friday for the last 25 years every single Friday five postcard and reading postcards every single Friday and you know me I’m traveling before going around the word I don’t care why am I late these are lazy I am I will send them and I know what will happen because we will get oh it’s extremely postcards from Japan wow it’s all about well it’s a seed in the ground and again and that’s keep it top of mind I don’t know what will happen with it. But I’m old enough to understand something will come out of it friendship, business, opportunitie, referral, whatever I want old spin off I do to one sec only I think that that’s actually the motto You build relationship for the sake you know what’s the reason to believe why we build relationship for you know the main reason you can build relationships for?

Mark Donnolo
Well I think it’s for it’s for connection it’s for to be able to you know give that person something or receive something for myself but it’s but I don’t build relationship necessarily to sell something I build relationship I think for connection that

Itzik Amiel
You build relationship for building relationship. Everything else you’re gonna get sales and friendship and people will buy for you because they want to buy from them because you need to sell from it. Yeah, you know it for all the companies that everybody knows that surprise you you go to Starbucks right? Imagine you buy coffee there because people buy $5 coffee that’s the end of it. Now in the store of Starbucks there is nobody, no person coming their voice or you need to buy more or less spend your money. Starbucks and he said, Oh, I’ll buy souvenir or buy coffee bean to take home. So you decided to buy, nobody convinced you. Some of you can fall in love even more. And buy coffee machine for $6,000. This is one value later to go another come Disney. You’re watching a movie with your children. Oh, they love it. Now they make it headed to you they want to go to Disney now. So you spend much more money $2,000. And go to Disneyland and spend more money there. And even some of you fall in love even more and buy a condominium Disneyland resorts or go to Disneyland cruises. None of these companies came to convince us now a lot of them visit I know again back to my industry professionals well enough in a client now for the client, the highest level consultancy, right? But that’s crazy that dating a lady and asked her to do the marriage after the first day. Let’s have a coffee. Where’s the value letter? See and a lot of business is missing that. And that’s why when you offer a lady to get married, you shouldn’t feel guilty. You should feel not that you’re pushy and salesy. It’s stupid, right? Why should somebody says yes, if somebody is saying is crazy, that probably not the right person. And you ended up many times in the wrong clients. But if you take them out to do it slowly, guess what they falling in love with you? And then in that stage company can take them away from me. Can you take your clients and introduce all your competitors? See, you’re thinking.

Mark Donnolo
Because there’s a difference? Yeah, there’s a difference.

Itzik Amiel
So I believe you don’t have relationship or not deeper enough to be so confident. So they like move fast. And think about it a second. Because that’s the power of relationship, if you have relationship, I have no problem to lose all my clients, all my competitors. And you know what I can tell you more than if competitors pick up the phone and try on my client. What do you think you’ve gotten the client says, you know, these idiots calling me trying a pitch on me. That would tell me I don’t have to look for them.

Michelle Seger
So I want to I want to just bring up I don’t know I want to I don’t want to break your train of thought. I was just going to make an example here. And I paused for a moment because I’m thinking about a couple of different relationships. So I’ve got a relationship with a president of a global staffing firm, it’s it’s one of the largest across the world. And I’ve got a great relationship with this person, this woman, and I would not be concerned at all about putting her in front of my competitors. But to your point, we have this mutually beneficial relationship that if consulting comes out of it, and they need our services, that’s great. But I’m looking at them for, you know, I’m always trying to provide to them value to provide to their clients, like we’re we’re doing a podcast, in fact, this one, and we’ll give it to their salespeople to provide to their clients, just getting the word out on something that’s very relevant today, on turning relationships into revenue and results, right, and referrals. And so we refer each other and I’ll get collateral from them that they’ve created and promote that as well in including, you know, gosh, even meeting her for coffee, and having a conversation about just what’s going on. And I’ve got another client like that, and yet others that I think about, I haven’t touched or continue to build that relationship with, there’s little ones that I’m going and kind of have an open mouth saying, wow. So I hear what you’re saying.

Itzik Amiel
And exactly if Yeah, everybody liked this lady, your life will be much more easier. Yeah, she made you made a beautiful bridge, which is danger bridge from building relationships and the cells. I mean, I’ll send the public as well lost clients and not lost relationships. Yeah, maybe we’re forgetting it, but you invest so much, to pitching on this land again, at the end, decided not to hire therapists will you keep in touch, and most people don’t, that’s a mistake. Because, you know, some people have difficulties because the boss doesn’t want to hire you, and they like you. But there’s somebody else. And then they move three months later to another company. And then they pick up the phone, because you kept saying, I couldn’t hire you there because this guy couldn’t. But now I’m in a position to it. And I would like every service. But if you didn’t keep in touch, you lost an opportunity. All those things show the difference between sales or hard sales or core sales and building relationships. If you build relationship, your pipeline will never be empty. Never, ever, ever. Why? Because everybody has a different point of time and your services, they’re not going to come in the same time. So if you build the election consistently, you’re going to get it and and I don’t want people to feel like I’m talking about investing a lot of time, no, it’s sometimes a split of a second. I mean, I used to send people a little what we call pinging, you know, network, you just a little a message. I’ll say hug. Because, you know, I say that because you know, my story. And people I know, they know, it’s me. I know, they had a smile on their face, when they saw it. A that’s it. I put myself again, top of mind. That’s as simple as it sounds. How long does it take? And people, it’s putting the efforts and I think a lot of people don’t know that. They know I’m talking right. And how do I know? Again go to Corona time. Everybody listening to us have 1000s of 1000s of connections. Right? Right. How many people called you in Corona time and ask you How are you doing? Are you okay? You guys are healthy, safe? How many people, 1000s? No, most of your people you probably can count on two hands, right?

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, we were talking to them, though. We were talking to them, which is kind of interesting. You know, our our theme during COVID-19 was was stop selling and start helping. And, you know, we basically reached out and said, What can we do to help you you don’t have to pay us anything, even though being paid was a really important thing. But we knew it was a time where you know, we needed to connect.

Itzik Amiel
So that’s a danger zone mark, because I warned a lot of people who are start building relationship during Corona because they’re at home, whatever. I said, I love it. I love you to do that. But remember one thing, when we go back after the corona period, to kind of the new normal, and you’re not consistently continue doing it, it will be even worse than even before because the client has a high, is an interest driven person. Before you never get in touch you never build the relationship then that’s what you have. Now you start building. Okay, let’s give them a chance does give our chance. But when you’re not consistent, continue doing it. You’re in a worse scenario because now you did it just because you needed it. Now you don’t need it because you’re busy.

Mark Donnolo
So so a few minutes ago, you asked why do you have a relationship? Or why do you build relationship, right? And we said, you know, we build a relationship because we want to have connection want to have relationship. But when you’re trying to develop business, you’re not necessarily building relationship because you want to build a relationship. You’re building relationship because you want to be able to grow your business, we basically want to be able to sell more. So how do you how do you bridge that in terms of, you know, I want to build relationship with somebody but really, the objective is so I can grow my business there. And then I can’t really find any commonality upon which to build that relationship. So it seems like I’m kind of doing it maybe not for the reasons that we talked about before.

Itzik Amiel
So I allow me to disagree. But I think you’re right in the sense that if you allow me to go from the end, the end is the problem is the industry, the industry give us tools and solution that promote different behavior, because you’re measuring how many clients you close, not how many relationship you build, you get paid by how many clients you close, all the systems that CRM systems build on sales, not the end, there is an end for it, there is a process beginning whatever you call it prospect, whenever suspect prospect to incline or decline or loss line. And that’s the end. But as you only saying lost client and that loss relationship where you keep them. So I also just want me to every single person to decide these mechanism of converting sales have another legal system for their own personal serum. When you keep in touch well, your relationship. Because that’s supposed to be differently. I mean, sales is not a hard. I mean, sell people don’t me, I used to say right sale, but actually is one sale versus the eating, you’re the best sale person you are relationship with the highest level, you don’t need to sell the mind you because you have relationship. And he was right. He also told me the same person told me Hey, did you ever ask your wife that you want something for dinner? And you convince I said, Yeah, sure. So you just sold your cell person. So he was but I just in that’s why I did by the way, last year, the global sales summit to give the wine industry to teach everybody selling but how do you sell out of authenticity, helping this other different scenario pushing thing on people that don’t need? You know, and I mean, old people, by the way, if you build relationship market, so easy, because if you have now a law firm, tomorrow, you’re opening a tomato shop, the next week, a pizza shop, and then you sell computer, who do you think the first people are willing to pay full price for the first main line to sell, or you have your relationship, your relationship and that borrow that you build once in serve you forever? Well, if you can sell, it’s a hard work. Here’s example for you, if anybody listening to us, and let’s assume I knew all the clients they need, I bring them for football stadium. And I fill in all this potential clients. And I give them a microphone to the shelf person, they told me tell them, what can you do? Great. But here’s the reality, only 60 70% of the people in this stadium, need your services not now, in the coming three to five years. Out of them. Only 20 to 30% are aware of that need the rest not even aware they will need your services coming three to five years. And I know them on the two to 5% needs your services now. So if you’re the greatest sell person on earth, you maximum exotic yet as this 5%. And that’s why it’s hard work every year, you have to come for those people again, 5%. But if you have relation driven person, I want you to talk to the 60 70% of the people. And when you do that, then you do well. And you plan to Sidwell, you’ll be top of mind, and then your pipeline will be full for the coming three to five years. And so much easier work much more joyful.

Michelle Seger
One of the things that I’m hearing you say is as you start looking at building a relationship, it doesn’t, you know, let’s say you make a connection. Okay, so 1000 people came to hear you speak, and you reached out to them with very, very little response back. But what I’m hearing you say is, keep reaching out, just keep some sort of soft connection, don’t really give that up, you’re not selling but you’re connecting. And by the way, like I didn’t get a postcard from Japan, nor did I get a hug. So I’m expecting these from you as we move ahead with our relationship in the future.

Itzik Amiel
Diving into the art of follow up, which is you know, from Jack Wallace, you know, the CEO of GE, but we spoke on the stage, and he taught me the methodology of being candid, they proved to us A, B and C and that’s the way I use it in follow up a B and say a people must probably by the way, the group of 1015 people, most probably the most important people now in my life. And it really put all the tailor made efforts of building relationships with them, I do everything to scan to see what they need. Then you have the See, these are the mass destruction people you know, whatever, you’ve got a newsletter or a Christmas card or whatever. So these are automated, easy to do keep them there and then there’s the B and the B are the people who should be AOC you need these are very fast i AOC and invest a smaller group as well as but 30 Maybe 50 people no more than that. This is that 1000s of people. So when I speak on stage, for example, even if there are 1000 people in the audience, I made a selection already then I could see you there are consumers resonate there will Come after probably to talk to me, I could see them smiling, I can see, I can see the one who doubted me, if you see me, everyone stayed, I always jump to the audience. The camera man always hates me because they have to follow me. And I never expected that this speaker grant will stay because I always go to the audience because I looking for the eyes of people who are thinking about I Bucha, that doesn’t go close to them. And I will hold them because I want them to feel authenticity. Yeah, I want them to be convinced by my word, I want to see them real. I’m the God of experience. I’m not the guy, we’re just talking from the mouth. And I’m like you exactly like you. And it’s very easy to convert people to see. And then number one, I make the decision. Now years ago, when I had the law firm, I used to go and make people given them a number. So if my mother was a 10, for me, I love that she’s the best relationship, I want everybody to be like that. What number I give this person, because they know this emotion, usually when people get a little voice talking to you. And they are not capturing any CRM system in any cell system. The moment that you have to capture those moments, I used to capture the number with seven, eight and nine. And then what is it and I beginning I used to follow up with everybody, but later on, I just fell over the nine and 10. And I ignored the rest. So yes, I will make some mistakes, for sure. But most probably not the rest of them. So I don’t want to make my life miserable. That prioritization of the relationship. The first part of building relationships, the most important part is not organizing your relationship. Most people organize the relationship is a waste of time. Nobody client, prospect relationship family. That’s waste of time, right? Prioritizing who are the hot clients who are the Copeland who are the prospect. That’s what you’re focusing on. When you prioritize, then you know, you need to follow up, then you do the follow up. And then the rest is performance checking balances. See we’re doing good, and what we call our Rohrer return on relationships. And when you know your return relationship, you’ll be standing up clear in front of your CEO and say okay, yes, I brought 200 relationship that will bring you in the coming year maybe three clients may come Kenya’s you’re gonna get 300 clients, will you pay me a commission even if I leave the company because I brought the relationship to them and worth millions in two years from now. So and I think that’s the name of the game. Unfortunately, as a lawyer and accountant relationship capital does not count in the balance sheet of the company.

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, yeah. Like many, many companies, most companies are like that, unfortunately. So I wanted to I wanted to shift to our final area, Itzik, which is something that I think everybody wants to learn about, which is creating personal brand, right? And we talked about this, you know, how do you how do you tell your brand story? You know, we spend a lot of time with people about you know, it’s not about introducing your resume or your list of experiences but it’s about who you are and why you do what you do and what drives you in your path. But how do you think about creating personal brand and and how does that play into building relationship and you know, communicating who you are.

Itzik Amiel
Awesome. You know, that love the subject teaching it but maybe few clarification first. To those listening personal brand is not saved on the celebrity. That’s why I teach how to build your authority. Because you know, these, if I said the name Anton carbine, I’m not sure if any of our audience listeners know who’s dispersed. If it’s a Madonna, you probably know, but she’s a celebrity. Not a bad example for an authority said once I’m not famous, I’m just known for the right people. And the number one photographer in the world for rock’n’roll band. When the van I read the chili peppers, YouTube, they’ll pay millions of dollars, this photographer will take the photo. Now why you don’t know the why, or the audience, because you’re not the Makarova. That’s authority. Authority is a person or brand is based on who which field and which audience knows about that’s it the rational know about. And these are, of course, very simple, free steps to take them. But let me go back and say that, if I asked the audience on you, by the way, do we have now a personal brand? Michelle, Mark. Do you have now do you have now mark and Jen business plan to have a personal brand? Plan I believe probably to myself.

Michelle Seger
We’re actually building on our personal brand. Yeah, I do. But

Itzik Amiel
Let’s, let’s let let me give you an answer.

Michelle Seger
Let you just say it’s through. You know what I believe it is today. But you give me the answer. Go ahead. Yes.

Itzik Amiel
One of the biggest thing is I was asked why personal brand is overlooked and underestimated for so long. And there’s two reasons for it one, because think about people that you know, when you meet them, let’s say they move from another big company and start their own company. That’s where you work now what they’re gonna say, Oh, I was 20 years the CEO. Yes. What did they just did? They just branded The other company again. Yeah, so focusing on your own brand you always branding somebody else. So that’s one thing. The second thing is 70% of adults don’t know what the personal brand. So listen carefully to all of you listening to me now you want it or you don’t want it, you have now a personal brand. See, John one said, personal brand is what people say behind you when you leave the room. Right? People say behind the thing when even if you wanted to not now if the same thing you wanted to say awesome, great celebrities. But if they’re Nah, you have to go correct it because it’s like cement, there’s going to dry and even stick people mine is very hard to change. So if you want to donate, you need to work on it right now. And the different three levels is character. Character is things you know, you got from home education, religion, culture is harder to change around them, there’s the personal brand that people see of you. They don’t tell nobody, because of watch your LinkedIn profile, this idiot don’t want to hide and then another call is that you idiot. That’s why I don’t I do not even know that. And then you have the personal reputation around that person. datian is thing that they will may think and say to you. And that’s why you have personal reputation company that in a manager reputation company will bury your bad reputation to show that that’s why I say to people, if you want to know people reputation, don’t check page number one, Google should check page number 26. But they don’t want you to find right. But but personal branding is something so unique because it says in your hand to shake. And, and so if you agree about me, there’s three steps. Step number one I call it discovers that number two is define. And third number phase design. And the hardest from all of them is the first one discover and discover why Discover Your distinct point of view. But forgive us sample maybe we will understand what it is. So for example, I love cheesecake. So let’s assume you also love cheesecake. So let’s go to the same supermarket to buy the same ingredients, but go to my house to put the cake in the same of them. Do you agree that the cake will change? It will taste differently?

Michelle Seger
If I make it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exact sound the better Baker?

Itzik Amiel
I’m not sure about that. But my grandmother used to say is the test of the hand. I see this in point of view that makes you unique, and there’s nobody like you. So what is this point of view and the problem lie down there that too many people linked it to the business? Not necessarily. Maybe you are the best opera singer, maybe you’re the best salsa dancer, maybe the best cheesecake maker, whatever it is. But if that will be part of your personal brand. And you don’t know what sell computers. So guess what? People who love cheesecake, one computer will come to you and never come to the other person who can sell the same computer, but he is good love geography? Yeah. So he’s understand that with your business, you stand up with your distant point of view. And that’s very hard to let other people go to a lawyer to talk about sounding crazy. I’m a lawyer. Yeah,

Mark Donnolo
yeah. And I see that happen a lot where people you have to, you have to become vulnerable, to get your personal brand out. So it’s not about just listing like you said, the company or what you do is a job, but it’s who you are as a person. And I think you have to get to a certain point where you’re comfortable with being exposed. And you can do that. And you feel like you’re not going to be rejected. I mean, so. So for me just, you know, real quick, I think in my skull, myself as the art school MBA, because I could never get a job coming out of business school because I was the art guy was a designer for years in New York, then went to business school and couldn’t get a job, right. So back then I couldn’t talk about it because that was a vulnerability area because I couldn’t get a job. But then years later, it became a strength because it was the way I thought and the way I saw problems that was different than other people that really became a strength. But it took a long time for that to happen. I couldn’t do it in the early days. So that that cheesecake had to bake for a while in order for it to be actually good.

Itzik Amiel
But let me ask you that question. Maybe I’m interviewing that what what do you think took you so long? Because you knew that what took you so long? Well, I

Mark Donnolo
Well, let’s go back to your steps. I had to discover it because I didn’t know I was I was the guy just trying to get a job in in the business world. I wanted to get a marketing job and then I went into consulting and and so I had to discover along the way and then I had to be the consultant and be the kind of the analytical business person and then I learned it later on. I could look back in retrospect and see that

Itzik Amiel
I get one thing that is very interesting to see and I’d seen for your experience that a lot of time. Our distant point of view is do what we could have called your gift. The thing that’s so easy for you to do because you don’t even think about it twice. And that’s what we take it for granted because it is from our nose and I tried so hard to find it No, but I believe everybody knows that, that we were born with that, but we take time to discover that’s what it is. And sometimes it’s so. And by the way, if you want a kit you also the audience a free gift, a book workbook, who could find a different point of view? Because it’s a landmark question with yourself. So they can use it and download the answers of this of the questions. But we do an hour isolettes have an answer, it is very hard, because it’s really giving time for yourself. But I wanted to think from a different perspective, I believe, it’s not up to you, I believe that if you have a gift, and you don’t shine and share it with the world, yourself as human beings, so it’s not about you. It’s about the fact that if you born with something that this thing can help other people if you don’t join. So that’s what personal but it’s not being snobbish, and celebrities about shining out with your skills. And I don’t understand why people are showing off for that. And I was laughing, you know, great that you’re an amazing human being, but you’re the best kept secret of Georgia. Nobody knows about you. So why do I care? You know, everybody should know about Jen is not being snobbish and celebrity and that kinds of influence and all that bullshit words, is really shining with you goodness and authenticity. And I think it’s very hard. But you said it’s so true for all of us, for me as well. 20 summer you took me to be me. And still I don’t think I’m on the present me. Because there’s a lot of things that come out of mind from society and behavior and people reflection that closing us, it’s what we were looking at the Child child doesn’t care, they know what they are, they tell what they are destroying who they are. And know and that’s exactly the problem we have. So I mean, and the finding your genius zone when you are good at as simple as we have joy and when you have it, you only gonna attract people loving it as well. And the rest will go away from you by themselves. So you don’t have to sell lay, you don’t have to do all kinds of every person you attract this bad relationship will be the right relationships. You know, because they resonate with you, there is no secret agenda, you will feel joy is almost the you everybody has his experience. In all this experience. You met somebody you met for an hour. And you felt like you know, this person for 20 years, right? How come? Yes, authentic enough teaching not salesy trust appear? And the second you don’t need 20 years for that? Yeah. This thing human skills we all have, we’re not using enough.

Mark Donnolo
So I love the point you made about if you have a special gift, and you’re not sharing it with others, then you’re selfish person. So this, this has been like a lesson in opposites, which I think is just really revealing.

Michelle Seger
Yeah, that is. Okay. Let’s start with this. So we start with a discovery process. And you you mentioned two other points. So discovery, I do believe is is the most difficult for me, it’s a lifelong thing, because I, I go back and revisit it. I become very introspective about it. And I’ve, I’ve talked to our team here about that, that it’s not about what company or industry you served or how long you worked at a particular company, but it’s getting a bit more introspective. And what are your gifts? What is it that you offer to the world? Take us if you don’t mind quickly through define and the design failure,

Itzik Amiel
Maybe one thing you see you mentioned it very important point, personal branding is not equal experience. Yes, students from university to make him number one in the world. So those of people who think oh, I’m experienced people come to me experience doesn’t count impressive. And if you haven’t, is great, you don’t have any, you don’t need it. So that’s something vain, because if I get the students to connect to all the most important people know everything about oil and gas, so is the authority, the students and all the people know everything better than guys or one person or one part, oil and gas. So if you want to know anything about on gas, it’s easy to talk to the students, because you know, there’s people that do try to find themselves each one of them separately. So you don’t need to have the experience and knowledge yourself as long as you are the curator of those experiences and you put on it beyond your attachment, whatever it is. So but the other one define design is what I said because in order to have a personal brand, you need to know who and what field. So the defined process is finding the right word, the right people, right audience for your distant point of view. Yeah, but the fact that you found and you have great lifeguard when you build the company in Sahara desert didn’t help nobody right. Being the right audience, so if you know the right audience, then the last part is design is just going out and chatting it to the world. So that’s the time when until that time is only internal process with you you finally define the look. And when you did that, then the design part is going and sharing it with the world in different ways. I mean by standing on stages by writing book, whatever you want below was that the audio video but there’s so many free tools nowadays to share and your business card on your signature of your email everywhere should be seeing your personal brand, because that’s where you start putting Get in front of the when people see them consistent basis, then you are your personal brand. Yeah so you almost brainwashing people mind but that’s that’s more that

Michelle Seger
That labs gonna really come out on the podcast. So brainwash I got it. No, I’m just kidding. So I wish we had more time. And we’re going to ask you back but Itzik, how can people get a hold of you?

Itzik Amiel
So best way is probably via LinkedIn and or my website is ItzikAmiel.com. And we will I will also probably put it in the note but it’s also the website of the sweet job a good find more new things are coming out a lot of interesting new discoveries that I’m putting in. So it’s brand new website, it’s hub.theswit.ch. Hub.theswit.ch.

Michelle Seger
Okay, so we’re gonna make sure, yes, we will make sure that that is on the podcast itself, because I’m encouraging people to buy it. There’s a limited edition of your book right now attention switch that I also think is helpful. Not on Amazon intentionally on your site, because you are giving the proceeds talk about giving back to the Kidney Foundation. We really, really appreciate you being on here with us today and everyone listening today. Please share and subscribe to our podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, we will create a link to the discovery of your personal brand. And we look forward to hearing our team sharing this and you sharing this out with your colleagues and friends. Connect with us on LinkedIn and we will see you the next time.

Mark Donnolo
Thanks for, Thanks for joining us. Thank you very much and thanks everybody for joining us.